Kill Bill: Vol. 2
The culmination of our "Kill Bill" series finds us delving into Volume 2, where a fervent discussion unfolds between Matthew Blevins, a stand-up comic and film critic, and Seth, who approaches the film with a healthy dose of skepticism. The primary focus of this episode is the contrasting perspectives on the film's narrative depth and stylistic choices, particularly as Matthew passionately defends the cinematic merits of "Kill Bill: Volume 2," while Seth articulates his reservations regarding its pacing and climactic resolution. As we navigate this dialogue, we witness the intricate dance between Matthew's enthusiasm and Seth's critical analysis, which allows for a multifaceted exploration of Tarantino's work. The episode encapsulates the essence of passionate discourse surrounding film critique, leaving listeners to ponder their own views on this intriguing conclusion to the saga of the Bride. Join us as we engage in a serious examination of this cinematic finale, reflecting on its impact within the broader context of Tarantino's oeuvre.
The conclusion of our examination of the Kill Bill series culminates in a profound discourse on Volume 2, where the dynamic interplay between skepticism and fervor manifests through the engaging dialogues of Seth and Kyle alongside guest Matthew Blevins. Matthew, a stand-up comic and film critic, brings an infectious enthusiasm for Quentin Tarantino's magnum opus, offering insights that celebrate the film's stylistic choices and rich homage to the martial arts genre. Seth, on the other hand, adopts a more critical stance, questioning the pacing and narrative conclusions that Tarantino presents. The episode delves into the thematic contrasts between the two volumes, particularly focusing on how Volume 2 shifts from frenetic action to a more contemplative exploration of relationships and personal vendettas. Central to this discussion is the climactic confrontation between Beatrix Kiddo and Bill, which, while pivotal, raises questions regarding its execution and the emotional weight assigned to a moment that was long anticipated throughout the series. Through spirited debate, the trio navigates the complexities of character development, narrative pacing, and the unique stylistic elements that define Tarantino's vision, ultimately reflecting on how these choices resonate with audiences both past and present.
Takeaways:
- In this concluding episode of the Kill Bill series, Seth and Kyle engage in a spirited discussion with stand-up comic Matthew Blevins, whose fervor for the film contrasts sharply with Seth's skepticism.
- Matthew Blevins passionately defends Kill Bill Volume 2, arguing that its slower, more narrative-driven pacing serves a different purpose than the frenetic energy of Volume 1.
- Seth expresses disappointment regarding the anticlimactic nature of Bill's death, feeling that it undermined the film's overall build-up and dramatic tension.
- The conversation highlights the juxtaposition of Kill Bill Volume 2's thematic focus on character relationships, particularly between The Bride and Bill, which diverges from traditional action film expectations.
- Kyle and Seth reflect on the distinct tonal shifts between the two volumes, noting how Volume 2 embraces a more introspective narrative style compared to its predecessor.
- The episode concludes with a critical examination of Tarantino's filmmaking style, emphasizing how his self-indulgence can lead to both creative triumphs and narrative shortcomings.
Transcript
Foreign.
Speaker A:Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Movie wars podcast.
Speaker A:Bill is not dead.
Speaker B:You're gonna have to so jacked up for this conversation.
Speaker C:I know.
Speaker C:I think it's his coffee he was talking about.
Speaker C:You were talking about brewing all this coffee.
Speaker C:It got me all excited.
Speaker A:We just got done playing a game of grab ass.
Speaker A:Sorry.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:I've never had that sound come out of me before.
Speaker C:I apologize.
Speaker B:You better leave it in.
Speaker C:You're going to have to pot that down.
Speaker C:I think maybe I blew everybody's speed.
Speaker A:Couple.
Speaker A:Couple of.
Speaker B:That's what compressors are for.
Speaker A:Well, if you didn't know it, Matthew Blitz is back.
Speaker C:I'm going to double down.
Speaker C:I don't care.
Speaker A:Stand up comedian, film critic.
Speaker A:And we're back at Seth's house.
Speaker A:And Seth is always here.
Speaker A:I hope you know how much I love you for setting up and doing all this.
Speaker A:I'm going to tell you in front of the people.
Speaker A:Yeah, we had a little bit of a spat last episode.
Speaker A:He said.
Speaker A:He said something I said sounded judgy.
Speaker A:And what I was really trying to say is my wife was judging me for something and I passed the judgment on to you.
Speaker A:And so this is me professing in front of the people when secretly he.
Speaker B:Was the one judging me.
Speaker B:Because he hates the masterpiece Tintin because he's an asshole.
Speaker A:That's right.
Speaker C:And he's objectively correct to do so.
Speaker C:Just so everyone else knows.
Speaker A:Knows we're old men.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:We're old men and we have old men opinions.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:Yeah, like I will watch RoboCop again tonight if I could.
Speaker A:You know, I'm just gonna keep re watching robocop until I die.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I would shoot Steven Spielberg in the face to never have to watch Tintin again.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:That much.
Speaker C:And I wasn't even on that episode.
Speaker A:What.
Speaker A:What joke did I crack at the beginning that was upset it wasn't a solo side movie about my favorite crow villain.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's like, damn it.
Speaker A:Well, last week we couldn't.
Speaker A:We didn't effectively kill Bill.
Speaker A:We had to do volume two.
Speaker A:And as a reminder, we settled on six to one.
Speaker A:Although there was a lot of dissenting opinions internally.
Speaker A:Ultimately, we went six and one, and we're doing volume two here, so.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And if you have any questions, I could just review it or you could just go listen to volume one before you listen to this one.
Speaker A:We are doing volume two here, so I don't even know if I need to do a big long intro thing.
Speaker A:I mean, what do we think?
Speaker A:Where do we.
Speaker A:How do we pick up on volume two?
Speaker A:Here we.
Speaker B:I find.
Speaker B:I find volume two interesting, especially compared to the first one.
Speaker B:But even just in general, I find it so funny that she's literally at the very beginning, narrating, you know, last time on Gill, Bill, and she.
Speaker B:She's just like.
Speaker B:And now there's only one person left that I have to kill.
Speaker B:Just you, Bill.
Speaker B:And then there's two other people that she kills before she gets to Bill.
Speaker B:I was like, oh, okay.
Speaker B:I thought, they're dead.
Speaker B:What?
Speaker C:Stylistically, it's a cool noir thing that they're doing and all of that.
Speaker C:You know, we spoke about it in the last episode, but Tarantino nearly killed Uma Thurman probably.
Speaker C:I think it was in that car.
Speaker B:Oh, wow.
Speaker B:So in the Pussy Wagon.
Speaker C:Yeah, well, the pussy died, you know.
Speaker C:But, yeah, weirdly enough, the frenetic pacing that drew me in so much on the first movie that Seth denies exists.
Speaker B:No, there is pacing.
Speaker B:There is bad pacing.
Speaker C:He thinks it's bad pacing.
Speaker C:I think it's frenetic.
Speaker C:It's different in the second movie.
Speaker C:There's no denying that the pacing feels like a completely different movie in the second movie.
Speaker B:And to be honest with you, for the first half of the movie, I very much enjoyed the pacing.
Speaker B:I thought it was very well paced.
Speaker B:Until she gets to Bill and I hit pause because I wanted to see how much time was left.
Speaker B:And there was a fucking hour left in the movie.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think if it had been 20 to 30 minutes left in the movie, I think the pacing would have been perfect.
Speaker B:But the fact that your penultimate moment is an hour long and most of it is, again, nothing happening other than conversations.
Speaker B:It lost me.
Speaker B:I literally.
Speaker B:This is the point where I fast forwarded through most of the last hour of that movie because I just.
Speaker B:It was too much for me.
Speaker C:Yeah, I get that completely.
Speaker C:Going into the second one, I.
Speaker C: You know, in: Speaker B:But this goes more traditional kung fu than it does anime.
Speaker C:Absolutely.
Speaker C:It draws more from that.
Speaker C:And specifically casting Gordon Liu in the Pai Mei character, I find very fascinating because.
Speaker B:Which I love that entire sequence.
Speaker B:Yeah, that whole scene is fantastic.
Speaker B:Perfectly edited.
Speaker B:It's perfectly paced.
Speaker B:Like, all of that is so good for me.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:And they were going to have Tarantino do the voiceover for that Gordon Liu Pai Mei depiction, but, you know, Gordon Liu's dialogue.
Speaker C:He was so good in it that they didn't end up going that way, which I'm glad.
Speaker C:But just the Gordon Liu Pai Mei connection is fascinating to me because it starts with Executioners from Shaolin, where Gordon Liu is up against the character of Pai Mei, not playing the character of Pai Mei.
Speaker C:And then you've got Fist of the White Lotus, which is a great movie with the Pai Mei character where he can suck his balls up into his body and that's his primary form of defense.
Speaker B:Oh, my God.
Speaker B:He turtles his balls.
Speaker C:He turtles his balls.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker C:But for me, it's fascinating because you've got Gordon Liu in that character role that he was kind of known for fighting against this particular character in the.
Speaker C:In the history of cinema.
Speaker C:So interesting.
Speaker C:Yeah, it's just really neat.
Speaker C:And it's one of the best examples of one of those types of kung fu montage sequences in that.
Speaker C:In that genre.
Speaker C:I mean, just.
Speaker C:It's kind of.
Speaker C:It's paying homage to that genre, but it's also creating some of the best shot examples of that genre.
Speaker B:Oh, completely agree.
Speaker B:But weirdly, to have the juxtaposition between the scene that directly precedes that where there she's lying in front of the fire and he's telling his story and playing that again, I was this close to fast forwarding that scene.
Speaker B:If it hadn't cut when it did, I would have fast forwarded through most of that scene because it just.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:It'S hard for me because I do get the whole adding depth to characters.
Speaker B:But what needed to be said was said in the first.
Speaker C:At the wedding chapel.
Speaker B:Well, no, no, no, no.
Speaker B:In this fire scene where they're.
Speaker B:Where he's telling the story and they're having conversation, what technically needed to be said was said within the first two minutes of the scene, and then the scene goes for almost another three, four minutes.
Speaker B:While I don't, you know, believe that you only need to say what needs to be said, that nuance is important in a movie.
Speaker B:It's still.
Speaker B:It's like there's.
Speaker B:There's so much extra that has nothing to do with anything.
Speaker B:It's just there.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And this.
Speaker B:This one for me, had less of that than the first one did.
Speaker B:But it still had enough, especially in that last hour, that it was just.
Speaker B:It was difficult for me to get through.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's funny.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:I did enjoy that last scene.
Speaker A:I totally get why you didn't, though, because it is the only scene in the movie I.
Speaker A:Time check Personally, it was the only time I was like, okay.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker A:Yeah, but the thing for me was I find myself kind of enthralled by the sound of Carradine's voice.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And he's delivering a Tarantino speech.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:So it's.
Speaker B:Well, he's delivering three of them.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:But you only got one chance to see Carradine deliver three Tarantino speeches.
Speaker B:And, you know, it's put him in three different movies.
Speaker C:Yeah, well, he.
Speaker C:He was.
Speaker C:He had other hobbies, apparently.
Speaker C:Doorknobs, that sort of thing.
Speaker A:Oh, and not to mention, it's the only time in the move in both movies where I'm asking myself about the.
Speaker A:The mechanics of her getting shot in the head and being pregnant.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And the kid's alive and she survived.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like, yes.
Speaker A:The whole time in this movie, I've completely suspended my.
Speaker A:My disbelief.
Speaker A:Like, I'm good.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But this was the first time in both movies at all where I'm like, okay, wait a fucking second.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:She got shot in the head.
Speaker A:She survived.
Speaker A:Woke up from a coma.
Speaker A:Baby was in there.
Speaker A:Baby's alive, doing great.
Speaker A:He has the baby.
Speaker A:I'm just like, it was the only time where I kind of was like doing gymnastics to kind of figure out.
Speaker B:The only part of it that I can justify is she was basically nine months pregnant by the time that the shooting happened.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:It would be not easy, but it would be very feasible for.
Speaker B:Because once they found out she was alive, they immediately rushed her to the hospital.
Speaker B:And I'm pretty sure they just performed immediate, like an emergency C section.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker C:And it's probably playing homage to a lot of the non logical elements of the 70s cinema that it's kind of drawing inspiration from as well.
Speaker C:Because it doesn't matter if it makes sense, it only matters if it's badass.
Speaker A:True.
Speaker A:Very true.
Speaker B:Weirdly, one of the things that I would actually critique the hardest about this movie, the very last set of shots where she's laugh crying in the bathroom, which is an amazing acting moment from Uma Thurman.
Speaker B:That's not what I'm criticizing.
Speaker B:What I wish Tarantino had done.
Speaker B:And I think this was a very, very big missed opportunity.
Speaker B:She has absolutely no scars on her body at all.
Speaker B:And I think it would have been a significantly more powerful image if she had literally just been in her bra so that you can see because she got shot in the chest.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:She got cut and stabbed.
Speaker B:She obviously had some sort of C section.
Speaker B:Should have had a C section scar.
Speaker B:Like it could have been such a really cool, non dialogue visual moment to see the physical, like embodiment of the scars that she's been through to get to this moment with her daughter.
Speaker B:And weirdly that moment, it completely sucked me out of it when I'm like, she has no scars.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Her body is perfect.
Speaker B:She should be beaten to shit, but recovered by now.
Speaker B:And I think it was.
Speaker B:Again, it's just another detail that adds to the reason why this dropped so far down my list of Tarantino movies.
Speaker A:I hadn't even thought about that.
Speaker A:That's a really good point.
Speaker C:What's interesting about Tarantino is that he does hotel room with the TV on shots better than anybody.
Speaker B:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker C:Paints this picture.
Speaker C:It's like everything you need to about that situation.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Is like the cartoons on the tv and you know, he's done that in other movies obviously like Pulp Fiction and things like that.
Speaker C:But it just, I don't know, it's this weird liminal world that only exists in hotel rooms in those moments.
Speaker C:And it's a.
Speaker C:I.
Speaker C:It's a distinctly Tarantino element.
Speaker B:It is.
Speaker B:And it's like outside of this one visual thing, that's a perfect scene.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But it's like to end such an over the top, violent, brutal movie like this where she doesn't have any battle scars, I think was a huge missed opportunity.
Speaker C:Yeah, that'd be.
Speaker C:Yeah, that'd be cool.
Speaker C:You see, the emotional scars are quite prevalent.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:But I want to see because she, like I said, she got, she got shotgunned to the chest.
Speaker C:You're going to have some.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Like she's going to leave a mark.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:There should have been some scars there.
Speaker B:There should have been a scar on her back where she got cut in the first movie.
Speaker B:Like there's just.
Speaker B:I don't know, for whatever reason that particularly.
Speaker B:I think it just bothered me so much that, that her body was perfect at the end of all of that.
Speaker B:I think it was a point, a way better visual image.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Another interesting thing is that Tarantino was quoted saying that he very much wanted to purposely fill like volume one and Volume once he found out he wasn't going to release it as one film.
Speaker A:He wanted volume one to be east and volume two to be west.
Speaker A:He wanted to purposely channel all the eastern influence and vibe into one and then all the western influence in the two.
Speaker A:And that makes sense.
Speaker A:And that's why I think you actually sense a dramatic change.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's edited, presented.
Speaker A:You can still taste and see the western or the eastern elements.
Speaker A:In there, but they definitely are still presented differently.
Speaker B:Well, like we said in, in volume one's episode, a lot of the.
Speaker B:Not even just the genre of western, but like specifically western made films that he's emulating have a lot of eastern influence.
Speaker C:Yeah, it's all, it's all self feeding.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So it's going to bleed in.
Speaker B:But there is definitely, there's definitely an evolved version of it that became the way that style of western cinema was made.
Speaker B:So that is interesting to hear that he like very purposefully wanted to take that shift.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:What I think is funny too is you, because you see the desert and you're starting to see how much Tarantino wants to like make a western.
Speaker A:The moment when he finally made a western in it.
Speaker A:Funny that it was in the snow.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:He finally makes the western and it's a snow western.
Speaker B:But then he also did Django, which was before that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Which has a lot of western elements that you could, you could basically say that's a western in a lot of ways.
Speaker B:It's a Western in the South.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:It more conforms to 70s Western sensibilities.
Speaker C:I feel like in some of the spaghetti Western, obviously then you're talking more of like the Jeremiah Johnson and those types of things.
Speaker C:Kill Bill Volume 2 is deeply rooted in the John Ford stuff.
Speaker C:Is.
Speaker C:Is readily apparent.
Speaker B:I mean it's very reminiscent of the Fistful of Dollars trilogy.
Speaker C:Yeah, you get those spaghetti western pieces as well.
Speaker C:But those John Ford shots where it's these expansive Monument valley landscapes driving up to Bud's trailer, you get a lot of that.
Speaker C:And then you get the iconic doorway sequence as she's heading out of the wedding chapel.
Speaker C:That's.
Speaker C:I mean that's John Ford.
Speaker C:That's his right there.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:Yeah, that.
Speaker B:So in the last episode I talked about how the weird shift to black and white during the fight scene was weird.
Speaker B:That makes sense.
Speaker B:Knowing that they were just trying to not make the blood red so it would still be rated R this time.
Speaker B:I very much appreciated that.
Speaker B:The only black and white sequence still was the chapel scene.
Speaker B:Because other than that one sequence in one, the flashback of her dying and being shot, that's the only thing in black and white.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I, I like that that carried through fully to that scene.
Speaker C:Yeah, it makes sense contextually as well because she's trying to pretend like she belongs in this other world with these record stored people.
Speaker C:And she would have never like the whole Superman speech, whatever you felt about it, she would have not fit into that world.
Speaker C:She was Very much putting on a face for that world.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:And it's, it's appropriate contextually that that seek that scene be in black and white.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:It's not superfluous.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:A lot of good choices in this one.
Speaker B:I think a lot of better choices in this volume still.
Speaker B:Like I said, that last hour was all of the pacing issues I had in the first one.
Speaker B:It just.
Speaker B:Too much, but not enough at the same time.
Speaker B:Like very, very odd pacing for me in that last, last bit.
Speaker B:Also, I got to be honest, one of the shittiest death scenes I've ever seen.
Speaker B:When Bill actually falls over and dies for how over the top everything else in this movie was the anti.
Speaker C:Climactic nature of that.
Speaker B:So anticlimactic because I wouldn't even call it subtle.
Speaker B:I would just call it anticlimactic.
Speaker B:I agree with that.
Speaker B:Because like the whole thing, the whole legend is that your heart explodes and he's just gonna fall over.
Speaker B:I want.
Speaker B:Even if I'm not gonna see mountains of blood flying everywhere, I want to.
Speaker B:I want to watch something that looks like his heart fucking explode.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And there were also parts from the films that.
Speaker C:That kind of.
Speaker C:That five point palm exploding heart technique was.
Speaker C:They had drawn from that were much cooler than anything that happened in the Kill Bill movies to where it's like you could only take a hundred steps after you were subjected to this particular move.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:And the guy took 99 and.
Speaker C:And then fell down so that it's like you could have done so many cool things with that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:But he didn't do much with it.
Speaker C:I don't necessarily detract from the overall score I give this movie because of that.
Speaker C:It's just there.
Speaker C:There are some missed opportunities there.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I don't know for me, again, if you're going to make me spend four hours of my time watching a movie, the payoff better be fucking worth it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And this, in my opinion, was not worth it at all.
Speaker B:And now that I think about it, like after once I remembered how it all went down, I did do remember thinking back on loving the movies, hating the ending.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And this, this kind of just reminded me and kind of solidified that of.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:This is why it's dropped so low because I think subconsciously I just kept remembering the payoff wasn't going to be worth it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Another thing too is even though she mentions the daughter on occasion, there's not.
Speaker A:It's interesting how the goal changes.
Speaker A:Like, yeah.
Speaker A:The movie's called Kill Bill.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But it all of a sudden is like, I want my daughter.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I know that there are moments where you.
Speaker A:She.
Speaker A:She expresses, you know, sadness over losing her daughter, like, and that happens.
Speaker A:But I'm never convinced that that's the target goal of this movie.
Speaker A:And then it kind of shifts on us last minute, like anticlimactic death.
Speaker A:And then it's about the daughter.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, it's not that I didn't buy it.
Speaker A:I actually thought it was pretty sweet, like, as a father.
Speaker A:But at the same time, I was like, wow, they kind of changed up the goal on me here.
Speaker B:Well, it could have been built up better because I think.
Speaker B:I think she could have had.
Speaker B:I think she could have still had the goal of killing Bill, but also spent the entire first movie mourning the death of her child.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because in her mind, her child is dead.
Speaker B:Her child died, and she almost died, and the child doesn't exist.
Speaker B:And so I think if the entire first movie subliminally had been her mourning the death of this child, then that makes the discovery of the child even worse.
Speaker B:Like, for me, as a viewer.
Speaker B:Because you watched her move on, and then suddenly she's forced to go back into this place where like.
Speaker B:No, no, no.
Speaker B:Your daughter's actually here.
Speaker B:I think, again, lot of missed opportunities with this one.
Speaker B:With.
Speaker B:With both volumes.
Speaker B:But, like, especially with.
Speaker B:When it comes to the payoff.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I just.
Speaker B:I think it misses the mark, especially compared to every other Tarantino movie.
Speaker A:Well, you guys go ahead.
Speaker C:I was.
Speaker C:And at the time, I like, was that the point?
Speaker C:It's like all of these fight sequences from the first movie and just how badass to have it end in just, like, a subtle conversation about Superman and then like, just so anticlimactic at the end.
Speaker C:At the time, I thought that was an interesting way to do that.
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker C:There was something deeply human about it at the time.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:I get anyone's that might have, like, any sort of criticisms about that, but at the same time, it's like, they're wrong.
Speaker B:But I get it.
Speaker C:It's okay to be dumb with your.
Speaker B:Accounts, as Kyle knows, every single day.
Speaker A:Yeah, Yeah, I know.
Speaker A:Speaking of being wrong, you know, the.
Speaker B:People who don't listen to movie wars, they're wrong.
Speaker A:They're wrong.
Speaker A:Have you ever thought about sending this to someone and you didn't, and then that person got hit by a train the next day?
Speaker A:Think about it.
Speaker B:You could have saved them.
Speaker B:You could have been listening to this and not hit the train.
Speaker A:Could have.
Speaker A:And also just.
Speaker A:Just Wait till the train goes, but don't try to outrun the train.
Speaker A:This is a PSA now, officially, this is even about Movie Wars.
Speaker A:Don't race the train.
Speaker A:Nine times out of 10 you're driving a Corolla or a Volkswagen.
Speaker A:You don't have the power.
Speaker A:There's not a ramp.
Speaker A:It's not a movie.
Speaker A:This isn't Hard Target with Jean Claude Van Damme.
Speaker B:No, sir.
Speaker A:This is real life.
Speaker A:Listen to Movie Wars.
Speaker C:Okay, I definitely do the last thing that he said, but as far as not racing the train, that's kind of pussy behavior, honestly.
Speaker A:Yeah, I.
Speaker C:In a Toyota Corolla, I think you could do a neutral drop.
Speaker C:You can beat that train, like, and subscribe to Movie Wars.
Speaker A:It is true some of us are from shitty towns and shitty families like you and I have talked about where all there is to do in town is race the train.
Speaker A:The question, the questions.
Speaker A:Okay, I want to relate this to Jaws a little bit.
Speaker A:Stick with me.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker A:The reason Jaws was terrifying at the time is because the shark didn't work and we barely saw Jaws.
Speaker A:And actually the limited amount of screen time the shark got led to more terror.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Dave, we talked a lot about how Bill Carradine is presented in the first one.
Speaker A:You see the hand, you see the rings.
Speaker A:He's talking very, you know, kind of terrifying because you're like, who is this person that.
Speaker A:And now kill Bill 2.
Speaker A:We are just knee deep in Bill.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Did that impact?
Speaker A:Did we lose some of the terror?
Speaker A:I'm not going to lie, because for me, I love Carradine and I love how he plays him.
Speaker A:But I'm also feeling like, man, we all sudden, we went from kind of like that mystery of Bill to like, God, there's a lot of Bill.
Speaker A:I know we're trying to kill him.
Speaker A:That's the point.
Speaker A:But it was kind of a drastic change and I don't know how I feel about it.
Speaker B:Well, for me, when I first saw it, I had no idea who he was as an actor.
Speaker B:So it's one of those things where you're like expecting the reason they're not showing him is because they want to show you someone famous.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then for me, obviously, now I know how famous of a guy he is, especially in the kung fu genre.
Speaker B:But like, for me, I just, I was like, who.
Speaker B:Who the fuck is this hippie guy?
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker B:He's like.
Speaker B:I was expecting like a Mickey Rourke kind of really menacing looking motherfucker.
Speaker B:And then he just looks, he.
Speaker B:He looks like he teaches yoga at a Hippie retreat.
Speaker B:Like, he doesn't.
Speaker C:Makes it more menacing in a weird way.
Speaker C:It's like this, this guy is in charge of all of these assassins, but he's just this chill dude.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think he.
Speaker B:I think they also, if you're gonna put that much of him in the movie, I think they could have done a better job showing what his organization of assassins does.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:It's just like, I don't buy that he's actually the Charlie of Charlie's Angels.
Speaker B:Like, I don't buy that he's the guy behind the greatest assassins that have ever existed.
Speaker B:There's nothing about him that made him scary because, like, oh, who were we talking about recently?
Speaker B:We were talking about Philip Seymour Hoffman in Before the Devil Knows yous Dead.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And how his low tone is so fucking scary that it feels like he's screaming at you when he's whispering.
Speaker B:And in this, I just.
Speaker B:I felt like he was gonna tell me that the vibes were weird.
Speaker B:Like, I didn't ever feel like he could kill you with his finger.
Speaker B:Like, I don't know.
Speaker B:It just, it, it.
Speaker B:All of it was very anticlimactic for me.
Speaker B:And then as you said, to show so much of him, but also really nothing.
Speaker B:Like, you don't get a sense of what the history of.
Speaker C:Where did this guy come from?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:What's his history?
Speaker C:Other than he seems to be respected by, you know, the.
Speaker C:All of the heavy players, you know.
Speaker B:Who as far as this movie are concerned are all pussies compared to Uma Thurman.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because she kills all of them.
Speaker B:Like, it just.
Speaker B:There's.
Speaker B:There's a lot of good with both of these movies, but it just.
Speaker B:The whole last act, I think was a massive fuck up as far as the payoff of what he set up.
Speaker C:Yeah, I get where you're coming from 100%.
Speaker C:But as I've kind of.
Speaker C:As I became a father, there are pieces of it that I didn't appreciate before that I'm kind of digging nowadays.
Speaker C:And just this notion of.
Speaker C:Because I think he's revealing a lot of.
Speaker C:About himself and his own relationship proclivities and the issues that he would have because he's not an assassin.
Speaker C:But in a lot of ways, the life of a creative and a filmmaker is going to have a lot of parallels to living as an assassin.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:And so you needed a context for like, how did these two, like, what did they even have in common with one another?
Speaker C:So you got a lot of that.
Speaker C:You got maybe to an excessive degree, who Knows I have a hard time being objective about it because it was like such a, such a part of my 20s, man.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Should this have been consolidated?
Speaker A:Would have been better.
Speaker A:Now granted, I know you've said a few times that like it should have been a certain length if it was done, but would this been a better if the original vision was seen through where it was released as one film?
Speaker B:I think, I think it would have.
Speaker B:Even if it was still at this.
Speaker B:I, I really would like to see the whole bloody cut because I would like to see.
Speaker B:Because I feel like he probably takes out that scene of Uma Thurman in the car narrating what already happened because we're just cutting straight to the next thing.
Speaker B:I could be wrong, I don't know.
Speaker B:But I like, I feel like for some reason I feel like it being one movie would have made the four hours a little more acceptable for me.
Speaker B:But for whatever reason, because it was put into two again, I still think it would have been a better movie at 2, 45 or 3 hours.
Speaker B:But I think having everything go in one fluid timeline would have made a little, made it a little better for me.
Speaker C:Yeah, I, at the time, I remember just, I was so enamored with the first one that it was like a full year before we got to get the payoff for that story.
Speaker C:And so I don't know, that might have helped me buy in a little bit more to the slower parts that seem mismatched from the first movie at the time.
Speaker C:Because it's like now I'm in, I'm approaching it with a whole new set of eyes.
Speaker C:I've had a year to digest what happened in the first one, but yeah, it would have been a cool like three hour long epic.
Speaker C:Yeah, you know, that would have been really cool.
Speaker C:I, I, yeah, I think that would have been a better movie ultimately.
Speaker A:Yeah, I think it would have been interesting how the, the, the east west dynamic, like seeing that in real time.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Would have been really cool.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because you talked about in the last episode about the, the way the sound editing shifted and all of a sudden all the swords and the blood, all the sounds are so accentuated and it's really cartoony.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like, I actually think it would have been cool mid film, all of a sudden we're now on this western.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Editing style.
Speaker A:Like actually I think I could see that being really interesting.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Now, yeah, I, I, like I said, I just feel like this should have been a fluid story.
Speaker B:And I get, other than Lord of the Rings, people weren't really putting out four hour movies back then.
Speaker B:I'm sure it was a fight for James Cameron to get Titanic as long as it was, but, yeah, I think as a singular movie, it would have made more sense.
Speaker A:Nice.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Rando, rando, randos.
Speaker A:Oh, my gosh, you're so in.
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker A:I love him.
Speaker B:One cup of coffee and he's like, he's.
Speaker A:Let's go.
Speaker A:He's jazzed, bruh.
Speaker A:I just said breath.
Speaker A:My son is really into, like, Fortnite culture and so, like, I hear him say things and I just adopt him because I'm trying to relate to him at a spiritual level.
Speaker A:Trying to be a good dad.
Speaker A:Trying to be a good dad.
Speaker A:It's so hard.
Speaker A:Let's just say this.
Speaker A:Our kids love stupid.
Speaker A:Yeah, they're just stupid.
Speaker C:You try to guide them to the good things and then they're just like, they'll jump face first into the dumbest.
Speaker B:I mean, you like robocop, so, I.
Speaker A:Mean, I know I showed my son I've got RoboCop action figures on my shelf and I.
Speaker A:I hand him the steelbook edition 4K.
Speaker A:To my son, it's like, someday we're gonna watch it.
Speaker A:And he goes, yeah, yeah, let's get the out of my house.
Speaker B:You are no longer my son.
Speaker A:Go.
Speaker A:Go play Fortnite.
Speaker C:You learn to be more enthusiastic about the films.
Speaker C:Paul Verhoeven, we're done.
Speaker A:Yeah, go play Fortnite in a tent in tent city and see how that works for you.
Speaker A:You're spoiled.
Speaker A:I kid.
Speaker A:I'm kidding.
Speaker A:I love my kids.
Speaker C:You gotta see the disclosure.
Speaker C:I'm not gonna put that same disclosure at the end of my statement.
Speaker B:Y'all know.
Speaker A:Y'all know love is redefined in our house.
Speaker B:Oh, my God.
Speaker A:Pulp Fiction was what spawned the idea originally for the the Bride.
Speaker A: r that he wanted to do like a: Speaker A:And Thurman then said she had envisioned a character, a bride who was left for dead on her wedding day.
Speaker A:And so that's actually where the idea for the Bride came from.
Speaker B:That's cool.
Speaker C:True collaboration of, you know, spirits of folks that.
Speaker C:I mean, Uma Thurman and Quentin Tarantino coming together with like a unified idea about something.
Speaker C:Of course it was going to be epic.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, it's kind of like the.
Speaker B:The birth of how Nolan ended up doing Oppenheimer was because at the end, Tenet Robert Pattinson gave him a book.
Speaker B:I'm pretty sure it was American Prometheus about Oppenheimer.
Speaker B:And that's what he was like, oh, yep, let's do this.
Speaker A:That's awesome.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You said this on the last one, Matthew.
Speaker A:But Tarantino wanted to overdub Pay May and that.
Speaker A:Did I say that, Ray?
Speaker C:PI.
Speaker C:Me pie.
Speaker A:Me.
Speaker A:My God, it doesn't matter how many times I practice it.
Speaker A:But he.
Speaker A:Because he wanted to emulate the poorly overdubbed films of the 70s, the Kung Fu movies, because they were.
Speaker A:They were traditionally.
Speaker A:That was how it was.
Speaker C:Well, and.
Speaker C:But what's fascinating to me is that if you have a certain context for these movies, you don't think of them on the.
Speaker C:In the crappy 70s overdubs.
Speaker C:These are rich films with a cinematic roots in Hong Kong cinema.
Speaker C:Those Shaw Brothers movies produce some of the most talented directors in cinema.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:So, you know, you've got Lau Karl and Chang Che.
Speaker C:I've referenced them in the last movies.
Speaker C:But the.
Speaker C:Their body of work speaks for itself.
Speaker C:And I think that it deserved that original vision and not the hackneyed version that we all think of, because in America, all that stuff got shipped over in crappy overdubs that were often pan and scanned.
Speaker C:So you never got a real element for the way that they were doing these in camera editing techniques for the fight sequences.
Speaker C:You never knew some of the artistry that went into those kung fu movies.
Speaker C:And I feel like allowing it to have that Gordon Liu soundtrack kind of gave it the respect that I feel it deserves.
Speaker A:And he's just hilarious.
Speaker C:Yeah, he's.
Speaker C:He does a fantastic job with his laugh.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, how does he.
Speaker A:How does he even do it?
Speaker A:I can't even do his laugh.
Speaker B:Welcome to the Matthew Make Sounds Hour.
Speaker C:I think adding Tarantino voiceovers to anything kind of just sullies it a little bit.
Speaker B:I mean, my only fault with Django Unchained is his terrible Australian accent.
Speaker B:It's awful.
Speaker B:It's like, why are you Australian, first off?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like, you're in America.
Speaker B:Just be a American.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:He inserts himself into any situation where he can say the N word firsthand.
Speaker C:Whatever accent he needs to do that.
Speaker B:With, he's like, it's part of the movie.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker C:It's got context and history.
Speaker A:He even did that with his rewrite because, you know, he did the script polish for the ending of Crimson Tide, and he was the one that put the black horse, white horse comment in there.
Speaker A:The whole movie.
Speaker A:The whole movie.
Speaker A:There's never been a mention of race between Gene Hackman and Denzel.
Speaker A:And then Tarantino rewrote the ending, and all of a sudden it's like, well, there's white horses and there's black horses.
Speaker A:So he even inserted himself there.
Speaker A:And he's not even in there.
Speaker A:He's not even directing.
Speaker A:He's just writing it.
Speaker B:Oh, my God, that's funny.
Speaker C:Why does this guy get a pass from everybody?
Speaker C:He's just sprinkling racism and all of this stuff.
Speaker A:I just imagine him sitting there with his director headphones on and, like, someone's supposed to say the N word.
Speaker A:And that's when he's like, you know what?
Speaker A:You can't do that.
Speaker C:I got it.
Speaker A:I come out.
Speaker B:I'll bite the bullet.
Speaker B:I'll say it.
Speaker B:Just.
Speaker B:I'll take.
Speaker B:I can handle the canceling.
Speaker B:Let me say it.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:You go get an agma muffin.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Because apparently you can't get that.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Jamie Foxx gave me a path pass.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker B:I have a punch card.
Speaker C:And this was pre clone Jamie Fox.
Speaker C:So this is like original Jamie Fox.
Speaker C:He's got a pass.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because I think you and I both have Django on our list.
Speaker A:And I like, I.
Speaker A:I both can't wait to tackle that movie.
Speaker A:But I'm also, like, scared shitless to talk just because of the subject and because Quentin directed it.
Speaker A:I'm just like, how do we go about that in a meaningful way and not piss off many groups of people?
Speaker B:Nah, let's piss him off.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker B:Burn it down.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:The finishing move.
Speaker A:You actually said this in the last one, too.
Speaker A:But speaking of Shaw Brothers, Executioners from Shaolin and Clan of the White Lotus is where that move, the five finger palm heart explosion move comes from.
Speaker B:Nice.
Speaker C:And in Fist of the White Lotus or Slash, Clan of the White Lotus, it had two titles.
Speaker C:I can't remember which one was the Eastern or the.
Speaker C:But in any case, it was 99 or it was 100 steps, I guess, and the guy only took 99 steps.
Speaker C:And then he was healed through acupuncture and traditional medicine and went on to have his final showdown with Pai Mei, who could canically suck his balls up into his body.
Speaker C:So I love that rich cinema history, folks.
Speaker A:So rich.
Speaker A:Would you call it turtling?
Speaker A:His balls.
Speaker A:Incredible.
Speaker B:He gave himself a ball giant.
Speaker A:Oh, my gosh.
Speaker A:One of my favorite side characters in volume one was the.
Speaker A:The Sheriff or the.
Speaker A:The Ranger of whatever you want to call.
Speaker A:But Michael Parks.
Speaker A:But he also.
Speaker A:He played in both movies.
Speaker A:He also is Esteban in this movie.
Speaker B:Oh, okay.
Speaker C:And the Esteban character is.
Speaker C:He only had a little bit of screen time, but it was like wicked of the Weston as far as memorability goes.
Speaker C:He just, like.
Speaker C:I don't know, he just embodied that character for that brief moment of time.
Speaker A:Yeah, I love that.
Speaker A:I wish that happened more, honestly.
Speaker A:I wish more actors would do.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like, the only one in I can think about is.
Speaker A:And it was an accident, was Paul Dano and There Will Be Blood.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:Because Daniel Day Lewis did not get along.
Speaker A:Was not playing well with the actor who's supposed to play his brother, Paul, Eli's brother.
Speaker A:And so they just asked Dano to play both of them, which in that.
Speaker C:Movie was kind of confusing.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:But in this.
Speaker B:In.
Speaker C:In these movies where you have Gordon Liu playing two characters and Michael Parks playing two characters, they are singular in both of those roles.
Speaker C:I mean, they're.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:You would not know if you didn't read it.
Speaker A:I had no idea he was both.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And lastly, this is my favorite rando of basically the entire.
Speaker A:Of both movies.
Speaker A:The flute was Carradine's idea because he played a flute in the Kung Fu show in the 70s, and the flute was the one that he made himself for the show in the 70s.
Speaker B:Oh, that's cool.
Speaker A:So it's a flute he made and it was the same exact one.
Speaker B:Nice.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker C:So it's got history.
Speaker B:Still a terrible scene, but that's cool.
Speaker A:Which one?
Speaker A:He has the flute multiple times.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:Well, he's at the chapel and again at the campfire before the.
Speaker B:Yeah, the campfire scene specifically.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I think it's cool how we meet him with the flute.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And for me, I geeked out on all of those Clan of the White Lotus little tidbits that he was talking about because he was, like, talking about the plot of that particular movie and I was a fan of that movie.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Shall we meet our child that was supposed to be dead?
Speaker A:Shall we shoot each other with a needle full of truth serum and tell the truth about the war card?
Speaker B:Oh, you're gonna get the truth for me.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:Let's kill the war card.
Speaker A:Let's go.
Speaker A:As a reminder, that really was a Hanzo sword.
Speaker A:Is our positive.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Affirmative.
Speaker C:Love it.
Speaker A:And then you don't have a future is our negative call one.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And also for the category, just a heads up, because we have one.
Speaker A:We know that both these films are considered one in the run of 10 films, but we're still going to treat them differently, as if.
Speaker A:If they're top five.
Speaker A:So we'll Just do that theoretically, even though they are, you know, it's one consolidated.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Two podcast episodes.
Speaker C:So, Yeah, I think people will refer to the movies by the Movie wars podcast episodes going forward.
Speaker A:They will.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Because I think this is episode 80 and 81.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:Should wait and make it 87 and 88.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:And I'm not going to do what I did on the last one.
Speaker A:Top Kill Bill cast.
Speaker A:And that cast is Uma Thurman, David Carradine, Michael Matson.
Speaker A:Gotten to the top as.
Speaker B:As Bud.
Speaker A:Yeah, as Bud.
Speaker A:I have a lot of thoughts on Bud.
Speaker B:Yeah, they, you know, Bud is actually my favorite character.
Speaker B:Really?
Speaker B:Of.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Of all the, The Assassin Quad.
Speaker B:I, I, I love his just nonchalantness.
Speaker B:How, how even when he literally gets fired from his job, he's just like, I don't care.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like, fuck all of this.
Speaker B:I give no shits.
Speaker B:And it carried through into him walking into his trailer and her about to bust in, and then he just is just sitting there like, it's no big deal.
Speaker B:He was going to wait there all night.
Speaker B:Like, if she hadn't been there, he was going to sit there all night until morning, and then he was.
Speaker B:All right, I guess we're good.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like, it's just, he, he cared so little and yet did so much.
Speaker B:Yeah, no, I love him.
Speaker B:I think he's.
Speaker B:He, he was fantastic.
Speaker A:He was a vindictive guy, too.
Speaker B:So Hanzo for me, everyone, I think, I think Uma Thurman ended up delivering a significantly better performance in this half than she did in the first half.
Speaker B:The first half wasn't good.
Speaker B:It wasn't bad, don't get me wrong.
Speaker B:But this, this one, I think, took it to a whole other level.
Speaker A:Yeah, they asked her to do more on this one to show more emotions.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:The other one was her fighting.
Speaker B:This was her acting, and I liked it a lot.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker C:Yeah, I, I go full Hanzo on this as well.
Speaker C:This is one of Michael Madsen's career performances, I feel.
Speaker C:You know, just even that little snippet at the end of the first movie where it was like a year before I got to see this character on screen, where it's like, that woman deserves her revenge.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:We deserve to die.
Speaker C:That was such a badass little moment.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker C:And just the.
Speaker C:I got a different impression than you, though, on the.
Speaker C:He just seemed like a schmuck, like a, Like a complete loser until that moment to where he realizes who he had been in with that rock salt shotgun and finally came back into his own but just taking crap from everybody at the strip club and just being demoralized.
Speaker C:And the story of the hat where, you know, Michael Madsen wanted to wear that cowboy hat, and then Tarantino hated.
Speaker B:It, so he wrote it.
Speaker C:Wrote it into the movie that he hated it.
Speaker C:And he's just like this.
Speaker C:This guy who had been.
Speaker C:Who supposedly, by all accounts, was supposed to be this badass, but now he's, like, the shittiest employee in the strip club and just a complete loser who's just being, you know, brought down in every turn.
Speaker B:And yet he's the only one who won.
Speaker C:And he's the only one who won.
Speaker B:He didn't lose the fight against.
Speaker B:He won against her.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:She did not kill him.
Speaker C:Yeah, she did not.
Speaker B:And, like, I.
Speaker B:I don't think it's him being a loser.
Speaker B:I think it's him.
Speaker B:Now that she's gone and they've all kind of dispersed and done their own thing, I think he's just.
Speaker B:He's realized his life has peaked, and from here forward, he's just living until he's dying.
Speaker C:What.
Speaker C:Which are Arya.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so I don't know.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:I think that's what I loved about him is I could very clearly see the.
Speaker B:I was somebody in his entire performance.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then the moment he was able to prove that he was somebody, it's over.
Speaker B:It just.
Speaker B:He came right back, and I.
Speaker B:It's so good.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think he has the most development in the shortest amount of time, and I wish all of the other characters had been condensed the same way.
Speaker B:His head.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So you're both Hanzo.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:It's funny.
Speaker A:I agree with you.
Speaker A:I actually.
Speaker A:It was the first time.
Speaker A:It's funny because I'm loving the background and the history.
Speaker A:I'm loving learning about these characters, but he's a character I wish I.
Speaker A:I would have learned more about, because I would have known, because visually and just how he's presented today, I can't see this.
Speaker A:You know, when he asked.
Speaker A:When.
Speaker A:When Bill asked him how his sword play is, and apparently he was just.
Speaker A:He was worthy of a Hanzo sword.
Speaker A:At one point, I'm like, I want to.
Speaker A:I want to see that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:You know, it's like, it was the only time I didn't get the history that I wanted it, but I also was thinking, well, he's also kind of handicapped by the fact that he's Bill's brother.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And a lot of the movie is predicated on the mystery of Bill's Background.
Speaker A:So, like, if they go into him.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:They'd have to give us more.
Speaker A:That means they'd have to give us a lot about Bill.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker B:But I kind of wish they did.
Speaker B:I wish Tarantino had done more.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Well, and with Bud, it's.
Speaker C:It's kind of again, harkens back to those 70s Charles Bronson esque characters where it's like, yeah, he seems like a loser now, but you know everything you need to know about the guy and what he.
Speaker A:He's done.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I mean, it's kind of like that moment in man of Steel where the guy pours the beer over Clark and Clark's like, I know I could do it.
Speaker B:And he just walks out and then smashes his truck through all the logs.
Speaker B:Like, it's that same kind of thing where he's.
Speaker B:He's helpless because he knows if he lifts a finger, everyone's gonna die.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker B:Like, he's so dangerous.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:And you get that through all of his subtlety, you get that he could win that fight if he decided he wanted to go into it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I just looked at IMDb.
Speaker A:Madsen has 345 acting credits.
Speaker B:Yep, yep.
Speaker B:No, I scrolled through his entire filmography today.
Speaker B:Like, it's.
Speaker B:It's incredible.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:Again, it's.
Speaker B:It's weird because I feel like.
Speaker B:I feel like there's some movie that is, like, very poignant for me that I.
Speaker B:That I remember him from, but I can't remember what fucking movie it was.
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean, he's done tv, he's done all.
Speaker A:He.
Speaker A:I don't think he turns down work.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:One thing I didn't point out either, I.
Speaker A:So I'm also full on Hanzo sword here.
Speaker A:One thing that Uma has done in all of her Tarantino collaborations and.
Speaker A:And she does it when she sees her daughter is that, like, she's acted a pretty certain way most of the movie.
Speaker A:And then she completely almost takes you out of the movie.
Speaker A:Like, I'm not gonna say break down the fourth wall, but kind of a version of that.
Speaker A:Like.
Speaker A:And the other version of this is when she ODs in Pulp Fiction.
Speaker A:Yeah, like that part of that movie.
Speaker A:All of a sudden, like, she's.
Speaker A:She's this very glamorous, you know, kind of like ethereal woman.
Speaker A:And then she's like very human OD's.
Speaker A:And then all of a sudden it's a very different movie.
Speaker A:That was the moment for me too, when she sees the daughter and cries.
Speaker A:Like, all of a sudden she's putting on this new.
Speaker A:I'm like, holy shit.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like, she totally took me out of this movie in a good way.
Speaker A:I was like, wow.
Speaker B:See, that's where I think it could have been even more powerful if we'd actually seen her mourning the loss of her dog.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Because, like, I.
Speaker B:That as good as it was, I still felt like it could have been more.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:You know, foreshadowing is an interesting thing and an interesting mechanism in movies, and it's usually used and there isn't any foreshadowing for the daughter being alive.
Speaker A:Still, at least I didn't see any.
Speaker B:Well, until him saying at the end.
Speaker C:Of the first movie.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:She know her daughter is still alive.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:That.
Speaker C:That's the only tell.
Speaker C:And then for me, at the end of that first movie, it's like, oh, shit, now we're going to.
Speaker C:Now go somewhere.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And again, that could have been such a cool moment if, like, the payoff of the first movie is her, like, moving on from her daughter being dead and then does she know her daughter's still alive?
Speaker B:Boom.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like, that would have been.
Speaker B:If I had seen that in theaters, I would have lost my mind.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So I don't know.
Speaker B:It just.
Speaker B:Again, this is where I also don't think.
Speaker B:And I know he.
Speaker B:He shot it as one movie, so it is what it is, but it's like neither of these can stand on their own.
Speaker B:You can't watch Kill Bill 1.
Speaker A:It's true.
Speaker B:And not need to watch Kill Bill 2.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But, like, I could watch Fellowship of the Ring and then wait a month and watch Two Towers and then wait a month, like, and not feel like I'm missing any.
Speaker B:Anything.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's definitely a very much a flow.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:One to zero.
Speaker A:And we have some of the same supporting guests, although l play.
Speaker A:But Daryl Hannah, she was top Bill last time, and now she's supporting Daryl Hannah.
Speaker A:Ambrosia Kelly as Nikki Viva a Fox as Vernita Green.
Speaker A:Again, Michael parks is Earl McGraw.
Speaker A:And as.
Speaker A:Am I looking at the right one?
Speaker A:It still hasn't listed as Earl McGraw.
Speaker A:Oh, I guess they did allude back to Earl McGraw in the first one.
Speaker A:And he's also Esteban.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:James parks is Edgar McGraw and then Jonathan Lundgren as a trucker.
Speaker A:And I think from there we're good.
Speaker A:Actually.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:Who played Pie man?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Gordon Lou.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Gordon Lou.
Speaker A:We got to talk about Gordon Lou.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think again, same with the first one.
Speaker B:I think the entire cast brought nothing but the best to.
Speaker B:To everything.
Speaker B:That they were given.
Speaker B:Again, every character is memorable for some reason, even down to the strip club owners owner.
Speaker B:Like.
Speaker B:Like he's very memorable.
Speaker B:And not for.
Speaker B:Not.
Speaker B:Not even in like a good or a bad way.
Speaker B:It's just.
Speaker B:You will remember that character no matter what.
Speaker C:He doesn't exist in any other movie.
Speaker C:He's a guy who talks like that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:And you hear about as useless.
Speaker A:It's like.
Speaker C:It's just drunken nonsense.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:He's like both your typical strip club owner character, but also the complete opposite at the same time.
Speaker B:Like, it's so.
Speaker B:Yeah, I.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Hanzo for me.
Speaker B:I think everyone did fucking great.
Speaker C:Hanzo for me as well.
Speaker C:And Daryl Hannah doing some amazing things in this movie.
Speaker C:And supporting cast, as far as the gritty nature that they brought to that trailer fight is unlike anything that you're going to see in cinema because it's all so confined and it's also everything around you is fragile.
Speaker C:But there are these two behemoths going after one another and destroying this trailer.
Speaker C:But she has some nuance to her performance as well because she does respect the bride character.
Speaker C:She does respect Beatrix Kiddo.
Speaker C:And of course you've got Gordon Liu in that Pai Mei.
Speaker C:It's incredible because there's a history there that goes beyond it's.
Speaker C:I mean, there are meta elements that make it great, but at the same time, he's delivering a really awesome performance.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:You go, so you go Hanzo.
Speaker C:Hanzo.
Speaker A:Yeah, I go Hanzo as well.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:You know the first one I talked about how Hanzo himself was my favorite arc and my favorite like history part, that was me for Pai Mei as well, adding a really.
Speaker A:Not only a great like reverence for the 70s kung fu stuff, but just a lot of hilarity.
Speaker A:Although I'm a little.
Speaker A:And we'll get to this in writing, I was a little shocked that he was so easily died, but died to poison.
Speaker A:It just feels like he should have seen everything at this point.
Speaker A:And like the fact that that's what took him down kind of shocked me.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But he is hilarious.
Speaker A:Really great character.
Speaker A:And honestly, I just think fully developed.
Speaker A:Like he.
Speaker A:He had such an ethos and like a legendary about him that I.
Speaker A:I don't know why.
Speaker A:I was just fully bought in.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And those scenes with him are my favorite scenes in volume two.
Speaker A:So I go full Hanzo.
Speaker B:Hell yeah.
Speaker A:Riding Mr.
Speaker A:Quentin Tarantino.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Unfortunately, I'm gonna have to go.
Speaker B:Who don't have a future on this one was even more disappointing.
Speaker B:For me than the first one.
Speaker B:As far as just.
Speaker B:Again, if the.
Speaker B:If.
Speaker B:If your entire climax is going to be the last hour of the film, make it worth it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:But even.
Speaker B:Even down to the conversations they were having, I was just bored.
Speaker B:I was so bored for the last hour of the movie that I probably skipped 20 minutes of it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Just of those conversations.
Speaker B:There was a lot of good there.
Speaker B:Still, like every interaction she had with the daughter.
Speaker B:I loved the moment where Bill is telling the daughter that he shot her.
Speaker B:Like, I think it's a lot of.
Speaker B:That is so well done.
Speaker B:But not only is.
Speaker B:Is just that last hour, for the most part, incredibly boring to me, but even the death like it.
Speaker B:Like I said earlier, the death just so bad.
Speaker B:In my opinion.
Speaker B:I think that death scene should go down as.
Speaker B:As bad as Talia al Ghul in Dark Knight Rises.
Speaker A:Oh, interesting.
Speaker B:Like that is how anticlimactic and, and awful that ending looked for me.
Speaker B:So I'm gonna.
Speaker B:I'm gonna have to go.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I'm going Hanzo, because I am a Pollyanna fanboy.
Speaker C:It's just, I can't.
Speaker C:I can't see this in anything in a positive light for me because as I grow older with the film, then so do some of my perceptions about, like, trying to exist as a creative artist and a father and, you know, as a parent.
Speaker C:It's, It's.
Speaker C:It is a very anticlimactic living.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:When.
Speaker C:When you're living that life and as a parent and then, you know, so now you've got the two of them off on their Shogun assassin adventures, and so who knows what that will bring.
Speaker C:But there are some naturalistic dialogue elements this, this film goes from.
Speaker C:You know, you've got Hong Kong influences, obviously, in the Pai Mei sequences, but then you've also got just like, trash, exploitation stuff in the strip club scenes and just the dialogue around as they're burying.
Speaker C:When they're burying Beatrix alive.
Speaker C:I know guys like this.
Speaker C:I hung out with guys like this.
Speaker C:They weren't burying bodies when I was there.
Speaker C:But there's just a naturalistic element to the dialogue that you'll find in Quentin Tarantino movies where, you know, he makes every.
Speaker C:Every outlaw character becomes a pop culture nerd.
Speaker C:And that's.
Speaker C:That's what he does.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker B:Yeah, I don't know, like, as sure, the dialog itself is fine, but the pacing of the story and that really.
Speaker B:That.
Speaker B:That really begins at the script.
Speaker B:I know the editing is going to have a lot to do with that, but at the same time, the pacing of the story itself begins with the script.
Speaker B:And this just overall feels like a very uneven story.
Speaker B:This doesn't even feel like a director's cut.
Speaker B:It feels like an assembly cut where everything that was filmed was put in.
Speaker B:And then he was like, cool, tighten them up a little bit.
Speaker B:But we're keeping everything.
Speaker B:We're not getting rid of a single moment of this script that I've written.
Speaker B:Normally, when a script or a film ends up being four hours long, you cut it down to three.
Speaker B:You cut it down to 245.
Speaker B:You find places where shit needs to be tightened up.
Speaker B:And this just.
Speaker B:Yeah, this just felt even beyond like an everything cut for me.
Speaker C:Sometimes you gotta let the shit breathe.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And sometimes you let it breathe so long that it goes bad.
Speaker B:It's like a very fine wine.
Speaker B:Like, you let it breathe for 10 minutes too long and it's shit.
Speaker B:It tastes like vinegar.
Speaker B:Like, sometimes you just.
Speaker B:You gotta ride the line.
Speaker B:And he didn't ride it very well.
Speaker B:He kept going over and then coming back really well.
Speaker B:Sequences.
Speaker B:The whole everything with.
Speaker B:With Bud, I think, was very well paced.
Speaker B:The one fight scene in the trailer, I think, was incredible.
Speaker B:But the overall pacing, especially of this second one, I think started really well in the first half and really just got overblown in the second half.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I actually.
Speaker A:I also went, bitch, you don't have a future here.
Speaker A:And this.
Speaker A:This was really hard for me because I.
Speaker A:I so much love.
Speaker A:And the first one, the writing, in terms of the dialogue, I thought the dialogue was near perfect in the.
Speaker A:The first one, the chess match was really there.
Speaker A:I think it was missing a little bit here.
Speaker A:The stuff that I loved was.
Speaker A:Wasn't as prevalent in this one.
Speaker A:There were just a couple of moments that kind of threw me off.
Speaker A:I'm seeing a lot of stuff I love.
Speaker A:Like, I'm loving the pie me thing.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But then when he dies because of Poison, kind of, I was like, literally, like, watching it, and I was like, fucking, wait a second.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:So I think that that is probably trying to lend more credence to El Driver as just this evil bitch.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Than it is doing anything for the Pie Me character.
Speaker C:So they just dispose of him just to make her have a little more credibility in some way.
Speaker C:Because at this point, Poison, like, he would have.
Speaker B:He would have caught that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:That's what I'm saying.
Speaker B:I was a guy that he is.
Speaker B:He would not have been fooled by his rice being.
Speaker C:But that's.
Speaker C:That's how they all went down in 70s kung fu movies.
Speaker C:So there's also that historical aspect.
Speaker C:It's like.
Speaker C:It's always like a poison thing or like it's treachery, ultimately.
Speaker C:Is treachery.
Speaker B:I honestly probably would have rather had seen her physically stab him in the back.
Speaker B:Back.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think that would have been.
Speaker B:Not even more satisfying.
Speaker B:Just like it would have been.
Speaker B:It would have sat better with me.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:He's my favorite part of the second.
Speaker A:This second entry.
Speaker A:And for him just to have that lackluster.
Speaker A:You're right.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:It does pay cadence.
Speaker A:But I was just kinda like.
Speaker A:Or pay.
Speaker A:It pays homage back.
Speaker A:But I was like, really?
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And also back to Elle, who I really loved in the first one.
Speaker A:I didn't.
Speaker A:I don't love this discourse between her and Bud.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Either.
Speaker A:I don't know why I feel like the chess match isn't as good.
Speaker A:Maybe it's because Matt's character is so much different than that.
Speaker A:Maybe an Uma would talk to L.
Speaker A:And the Mamba thing.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:That trail, that trailer scene to me, between the two of them.
Speaker A:I don't know.
Speaker A:It just.
Speaker A:Between that and the other one, I was like, this just doesn't hit the same cylinders as the first one for me.
Speaker A:So I do think it was a step in the wrong direction.
Speaker A:But I do recognize the first one was nearly perfect.
Speaker B:Well, I think this is why it's important to look at both movies as separate movies in addition to being Kill Bill is because they do take on such drastically different.
Speaker B:Not even just editing or stylistic tones, but even down to the writing.
Speaker B:The tone is so different between the two of them that I don't.
Speaker B:I think because he released them in that way, I think they have to be looked at separately.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:He's doing service to the genre which is being portrayed in that particular sequence.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's.
Speaker C:It's all so differently.
Speaker C:It's also diametrically opposed.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I also.
Speaker A:For some reason, I.
Speaker A:I actually love the Carradine stuff at the end.
Speaker A:I do.
Speaker A:Like, I.
Speaker A:I have not a lot of problems with that itself, but I don't know why, but when he started talking about the Superman comic, I kind of got lost there for a minute.
Speaker B:I think I skipped that in my fast forwarding.
Speaker A:There's a part of that I'm.
Speaker A:I'm loving because the chess match is almost restored because now we have these two heavyweights going back and forth.
Speaker A:But when he starts talking about the Superman comic, like, what point is he trying to make?
Speaker B:Yeah, well, the.
Speaker C:The I.
Speaker C:I think it's a fantastic point, honestly, is that, you know, all of those superheroes are trying to.
Speaker C:The character is the superhero.
Speaker C:The superhero is the character versus the Clark Kent in the Superman scenario.
Speaker C:He's.
Speaker C:Who's pretending.
Speaker C:So she's not gonna be able to operate as a Clark Kent because she's Superman.
Speaker C:There's just no way for her to live that.
Speaker C:No way for her to live in that world for very long.
Speaker B:It just feels very strange.
Speaker B:Cause now that you say all this, I'm remembering it from my first viewing.
Speaker B:It feels so strange, though, because this entire movie, you've never had pop culture references that on the desk.
Speaker C:Right, right.
Speaker B:As opposed to Pulp Fiction.
Speaker B:It's nothing but pop culture references.
Speaker B:This is such an isolated.
Speaker B:It is such a fantasy world that sure takes place in the real world, but it's still such a fantasy world that to just out of nowhere be like, it's Superman.
Speaker B:That would be like me making a movie that.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Like, takes place in modern times and out of nowhere, just being like, you know, those Lord of the Rings movies, that Boromir guy, like, damn.
Speaker B:Like, you should be more like Boromir.
Speaker B:Like, what the fuck?
Speaker B:Why?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And I think it's Tarantino writing himself into the movie at that point, and all of the types of relationship problems that have probably emerged in that guy's life, I can't imagine.
Speaker B:And this is where I'm like, I feel like this is his most overindulgent.
Speaker B:Because I've said this before, I think all art has to be self indulgent to a point in order to be unique.
Speaker B:Because if you're making a Marvel movie, you're not really making art.
Speaker B:You're making entertainment.
Speaker B:It is what it is.
Speaker B:There's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker B:It's a style of whatever, but you're making something for someone else.
Speaker B:As an artist, if you're going to make art, you should be making it only for you and then letting the rest of the world in on you, doing something for yourself.
Speaker B:This and all of Tarantino's movies, I would say, are self indulgent, mostly to a good point.
Speaker B:This, I think, just goes so overboard with all of the indulgence that I just.
Speaker B:I feel like it gets lost in its own indulgence.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:It insists upon itself.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:We're insisting upon this category because it's two to one.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker A:Two to one here.
Speaker A:It's going.
Speaker A:It's going crazy up in here.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:Directing Quentin Tarantino, this is going to.
Speaker B:Be a squeak under for me, this is.
Speaker B:It's.
Speaker B:There's so much good in it, but just once again, it's overshadowed by a lot of very simple mistakes that someone.
Speaker B:Even.
Speaker B:Even of the only movie of his that I've seen before, this one is, is Pulp Fiction, simply based on that movie.
Speaker B:And knowing what I know about Reservoir Dogs and having.
Speaker B:Having heard what I've heard about Jackie Brown, I feel like a lot of the mistakes he made were either just negligence or him jacking himself off.
Speaker B:Him just being like, oh, this is so good.
Speaker B:Make the shot longer.
Speaker B:It's just like, come on, bro, you gotta.
Speaker B:There comes a point where you have to tighten it up to tell the best story you can tell.
Speaker B:And I don't think he did that.
Speaker B:I think he got lost in his own brain as far as this one's concerned.
Speaker B:So a lot of good stuff, a lot of incredible sequences, a lot of very well written characters, but it's.
Speaker B:It's just off balance for me.
Speaker B:So it's.
Speaker B:It's a bitch.
Speaker B:You got no future.
Speaker A:Okay?
Speaker C:Tarantino can come all over my face with all of his self indulgence.
Speaker C:Like I said, it's.
Speaker C:It's not only paying homage to these different genres, but it's also doing so in a way that is creating new.
Speaker C:It's like setting the high water marks for those particular genres.
Speaker C:It's like that is a.
Speaker C:In the first movie where you have the L driver sequence with the split screen, I'm like, that is a fantastic giallo shot.
Speaker C:Yeah, you'd be hard pressed to find an example of that good of a giallo shot in most giallo films, and most of them are kind of boring.
Speaker C:It's the same with all of the kung fu movies.
Speaker C:You get the best parts of all of these different genres kind of boiled down to the part that we wanted.
Speaker C:And that's what I loved about it.
Speaker C:And, you know, and he might have been a little indulgent at the time, because I think he was kind of.
Speaker C:He was using new colors from the crayon box, so to speak.
Speaker C:It's like he had never worked in these genres before, and I think that it's probably something that he had always wanted to do.
Speaker C:I mean, you get a little taste of it with, like, the blaxploitation elements that you find in Jackie Brown, but then you're leaning full into genre territory and you're creating some of the coolest examples of those genres while you're doing it.
Speaker C:That's not an easy thing to do.
Speaker C:You get a lot of Directors that were like, I'm gonna make this my homage to blaxploitation movies.
Speaker C:And it's like most of the time it sucks to be able to hit it out of the park with a good kung fu sequence, with a good anime sequence, with a good western sequence.
Speaker C:It's like to be able to dabble in all of these different genres so effectively, you know, it gets a pass for me.
Speaker C:It's, it's like it's.
Speaker C:And I, and I can fully see all of the flaws that you're pointing out in both movies now that I kind of reflect back on them.
Speaker C:And I had some pacing issues the first time I, I saw the second one because it's like, oh man, the, that final sequence with Bill.
Speaker C:But I don't know what it has.
Speaker C:Maybe as I get older I am slowing down.
Speaker C:So for me it works, you know, and I'm going to have a hard time not giving this one high marks because of what it did for cinema at the time.
Speaker C:And like I said, I'm not going to be able to look at those things objectively in that way because it's like it's, it's the first time you heard the Beatles, man.
Speaker C:It's the first, it's the first time you saw like examples of Hong Kong cinema mixed with, with Japanese cinema mixed with western cinema.
Speaker C:And I'm hard pressed to think of modern examples that aren't Tarantino movies that do it as effectively as that one did.
Speaker B:I think for me these should have been two very good 90 minute movies.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:And then should have been one four hour cut.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I, and I, and I'll grant you all of that.
Speaker C:But I will sit for the long cut.
Speaker C:I'll sit.
Speaker B:I mean, it's fair.
Speaker B:Look, I, again, I'm the same way.
Speaker B:I only watch the extended versions, Lord of the Rings.
Speaker B:But it's like, like for this, for, for the medium of separating it into two films.
Speaker B:Yeah, I think it should have been two 90 minute movies and then a four hour whole bloody cut like he does.
Speaker C:It's just there was so much with the movie business then too because it's like there was no reason for you not to be able to release a DVD version of this in the States.
Speaker C:He did exactly what he wanted to do.
Speaker C:Yeah, but I think it was all a bunch of Weinstein and.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:What else was going on at the time.
Speaker C:But yeah, it's like you, you could have given us exactly what we wanted every time you could have done it.
Speaker B:But I am surprised.
Speaker B:I mean I'm sure, I'm sure there is a DVD version of the whole bloody cut.
Speaker B:I don't know if it's official or not, but I would be interested to see what the actual Singular movie looks like.
Speaker A:Me too.
Speaker A:Yeah, I actually, and it's kind of a Scotia over, but I do go, I do go Hanzo sword here.
Speaker A:The reason it's a skosh is, and again, there's only, it's only binary on these categories, but it's, it's, it's a step down from the first one.
Speaker A:But for me, when I think about these movies, it's the side quest that, that Tarantino takes me on.
Speaker A:It's these, it's the Hanzos, the pie maze.
Speaker A:Like I'm enjoying these stops along the way.
Speaker A:I don't think the payoff was as, as, as fulfilling as I wanted it to be, but I am enjoying the ride and I think it's a massive vision.
Speaker A:And yes, it's a bit self indulgent, I definitely agree with that.
Speaker A:But ultimately it's still something that I think only Tarantino could pull off.
Speaker A:And I really am, I enjoyed the ride.
Speaker A:Yes, I kind of left, I was like, ah, that didn't hit as big as I thought it would at the end.
Speaker A:But I, I'm, I'm just thrilled with some of these characters.
Speaker A:I'm meeting some of the choices he's making.
Speaker A:I, so yeah, it's a skosh, but I do go Hanzo sword.
Speaker A:But yeah, it definitely was not, it did not hit the same vibration as the first one for me.
Speaker A:So it is three to one.
Speaker A:Then we got a Hanzo sword.
Speaker A:So far, what's in front of us, cinematography, production design, sound, costumes, editing.
Speaker B:This is still going to be a squeak over for me as a Hanzo, but I do think it degraded.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:I don't think the cinematography was as good as the first one and the editing is as bad as the first one.
Speaker B:Now that I'm thinking about it, did I go over or under on this one?
Speaker B:For the last one, I think I went under.
Speaker B:So no, I'm under.
Speaker B:No, we're under under.
Speaker B:Yeah, we're, we're a bitch.
Speaker B:No future on this one.
Speaker B:Again, it's like there was so much good, but just that 51%.
Speaker B:The just, I don't know.
Speaker B:It didn't hit for me anywhere near the same as the first one did.
Speaker B:And yeah, it's, it's a scotch under for me.
Speaker C:Yeah, I, I, I'm Hanzo all the way.
Speaker C:There's, I can't get around it.
Speaker C:There's no way around it.
Speaker C:But it's, it's like the, the amount of tension that you're able to build in some of those scenes.
Speaker C:And with this, the cinematography, you can.
Speaker B:I mean, I didn't get the tension in this one.
Speaker B:I got.
Speaker B:I got the tension in parts of the first one.
Speaker C:Did you catch it in the theater by at all?
Speaker C:No, no.
Speaker C:Yeah, in the.
Speaker C:It was just.
Speaker C:It was an.
Speaker B:Remember, I was 10 when this came out.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker C:That's true.
Speaker C:You should not have seen it in the theater.
Speaker C:Kudos to your parents for not allowing that to happen.
Speaker C:But yeah, it's.
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker C:There was.
Speaker C:There's so much tension.
Speaker C:There's so much.
Speaker C:Again, it's.
Speaker C:It's paying homage to genres while single handedly redefining those genres in the process.
Speaker C:Yeah, that's.
Speaker C:That's where it's fresh for me.
Speaker A:Yeah, I go Hanzo here.
Speaker A:The thing that I actually was blown away by that I'm still thinking about.
Speaker A:I love the diversity of camera work here.
Speaker A:We're getting a lot of interesting angles.
Speaker A:I like it some.
Speaker A:It's small, but the black and white church angle that high.
Speaker A:Is it a jib shot?
Speaker A:Is that what it is?
Speaker A:A really high jib shot that actually.
Speaker B:Might even be considered a crane shot.
Speaker A:Crane shot.
Speaker B:A jib is just a smaller crane.
Speaker A:He's given us a lot of point of views and he did this in the first one too.
Speaker A:And I just forgot to comment on it.
Speaker A:But I love it when it randomly will go split screen.
Speaker A:I also loved it when he.
Speaker A:She does have her daughter and they're in the car and all of a sudden we're, we're.
Speaker A:The camera is the front of the car.
Speaker A:I just love that he's.
Speaker A:He's.
Speaker A:One way that he does give us a lot of nuance and creativity is by giving me different points of view with the camera work.
Speaker A:Yeah, that was really fun for me.
Speaker A:I think.
Speaker A:I do think the editing kind of took a step off.
Speaker A:The soundtrack wasn't as memorable.
Speaker A:But at the end of the day I'm.
Speaker A:It's kind of a.
Speaker A:It's a visual feast for sure.
Speaker A:Like I love.
Speaker A:And Tarantino will do this in some of his movies where randomly will shift the camera angle to a totally different style of camera work.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's like, oh, that's interesting.
Speaker A:It definitely sticks out to me.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:And every one of them is a reference to something as well.
Speaker C:So if you can chase down all those rabbit holes, you can find some really Fascinating cinematic history there as well.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And you're right.
Speaker C:On the soundtrack.
Speaker C:The Rodriguez supplied soundtrack does not quite hit some of the way that he was using some of the pop music from the first one.
Speaker B:Robert Rodriguez.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker B:Yeah, he did the soundtrack on the second one.
Speaker C:He did it for free for a dollar.
Speaker C:So, yeah, so if, if Tarantino agreed to direct a scene in Sin City for a buck, then they would trade their services.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker C:And so, yeah, Rodriguez did the second one, which is a.
Speaker C:It's a.
Speaker C:It's a great little homage to the.
Speaker C:Any.
Speaker C:Any Omoricone scores that were directly used in the first one, honestly.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:It is five to one.
Speaker A:No, it's a.
Speaker A:It's actually four to one.
Speaker A:Yes, I lose count easily.
Speaker A:I actually originally called this category Big Kahuna Burger.
Speaker A:But the, the.
Speaker A:But this is the Hateful Five.
Speaker A:So, yes, we know that it's consolidated as one in the.
Speaker A:In the 10 Tarantino films, but we're going to break them apart for the purpose of this category.
Speaker A:Does this get into the.
Speaker A:To the top five, Tarantino?
Speaker B:This.
Speaker B:This would be even lower than the first one for me.
Speaker B:Don't know what else to say.
Speaker A:Yeah, no, it's good.
Speaker C:I get it.
Speaker C:I think one makes the cut for the top five, and I think two is probably just out of the top five.
Speaker A:Yeah, I'd agree.
Speaker A:I go, you don't have a feature on this one.
Speaker A:This one.
Speaker A:The first one didn't get in.
Speaker A:Not because I thought it was bad necessarily.
Speaker A:I just thought the competition was really high for, you know, I mentioned Jackie Brown, Jango.
Speaker A:There's just so much.
Speaker A:And Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, there's just so much greatness in those.
Speaker A:For me, it was just like that slight tension between great and great.
Speaker A:Here.
Speaker A:This one takes a step below to that one.
Speaker A:I still really enjoyed Kill Bill Volume 2, but it definitely doesn't.
Speaker A:Doesn't get in there.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So, yeah, it is four to two.
Speaker A:Last category.
Speaker A:It's already over, but I called this one Love Me Two Times.
Speaker A:My cadence to the Doors.
Speaker A:My second.
Speaker A:My second favorite band of all time.
Speaker A:Love you, Jim.
Speaker B:Just under the Deftones.
Speaker A:Under the.
Speaker C:The Deftones.
Speaker A:The Deftones.
Speaker A:Rest in Peace, Jim Morrison.
Speaker A:But Love Me Two Times.
Speaker A:The fact that we, you know, yes, we had to wait a year, but we got a sequel a year later.
Speaker A:Tarantino doesn't have sequels.
Speaker A:This is his only one.
Speaker A:Let's just look at this.
Speaker A:As you know, I know it's a Volume Two, but since it came out separately, you have to look at it as a sequel.
Speaker A:So how do we feel about it as a second entry?
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:It's going to go under for me.
Speaker B:It's going to.
Speaker B:And again, it's not bad, but it is not as good as the first one.
Speaker B:And the payoff is not worth it if it's going to.
Speaker B:If it's going to be a part one, Part two movie.
Speaker B:That payoff has got to be even better than it would be in a trilogy, in my opinion.
Speaker B:And it just, it did not hold up to it.
Speaker B:The fact that the title of the movie is Kill Bill and the moment that Bill dies is such a, honestly, just, just underwhelming moment, I don't think it lives up.
Speaker B:I don't think it's as good as the first one and I don't think it's a very good sequel.
Speaker B:Yeah, still not bad.
Speaker B:Still above a 7 in my rating system, but it's not, not great as far as the internal rating system would go.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker C:So to take a four hour epic, right, and to take the moment it's named after and make it the least interesting part of the entire series, that's ballsy.
Speaker B:It's like it's ballsy or just bad filmmaking.
Speaker C:I don't know the difference.
Speaker C:Yeah, it totally works as a sequel.
Speaker C:It worked to complete the story for me.
Speaker C:It had to be diametrically opposed in tone and pacing from the first one, I think because the first one was just not, in Seth's opinion, it was just like Ambien or something.
Speaker C:But the first one was like a shot of adrenaline and then you got this cool low simmer thing in the second one and just the anticlimactic moment of killing Bill and just making it like a human moment between two people that were in a relationship that fell apart.
Speaker C:That's ultimately what it is.
Speaker C:It's a relationship movie.
Speaker C:When you get to that, that back half, it's a relationship that did not work.
Speaker C:And now both characters want closure about why we all want that in life, but none of us get to walk away from that table with one of us being dead.
Speaker C:So in, you know, in that regard, I highly rate this movie in terms of like this genre busting thing that kind of sampled a lot of my favorite things in the world.
Speaker C:And then also just as a standalone piece of art, it's like it told a deeply personal story when it was all said and done and it, to me, that's infinitely compelling.
Speaker A:Yeah, I actually went, bitch, you don't have a future on this one.
Speaker A:It was a step below.
Speaker A:I do and here's my ultimate thing again, it's hard because I do hold this film in high regard compared to so many movies, and I'm such a Tarantino guy.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But I do think if this was one film, if there was not multiple entries, the ending would have been completely different.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I think it would have been really difficult to sit down and watch Volume One and as just one film, as just without a sequel and have this ending tacked on to this film as like a continuous.
Speaker A:I think it would have changed the dynamic.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And I think the second half, they would have had to make different decisions.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So I do think there may have been a better conclusion out there somewhere.
Speaker A:I still like the ending of this one.
Speaker A:But I do agree, especially because that.
Speaker A:That was one of the biggest.
Speaker A:Based on my research and some of the stuff you said.
Speaker A:That Five Finger palm thing was such a.
Speaker A:It's such a callback.
Speaker A:That's like the super bowl in a lot of ways for those films.
Speaker A:That kind of.
Speaker A:And because it, you know, it revolves around Pai Mei, who's this legendary recurring character in the lore, it is kind of weird that he kind of just walks.
Speaker A:And even if they just would have said the hundred step thing or something, because I wouldn't have known that that would have added just a little bit of gravitas.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:I do think that this.
Speaker A:The decisions would have been different.
Speaker A:I think it's interesting some of the choices he made for the second one that did make it a step below versus a really beautiful continuous vision.
Speaker A:So again, it's another skosh of a below.
Speaker A:But yeah, I definitely went bitch.
Speaker B:It's like, I still.
Speaker B:I still think that, like, if you're going to say the heart explodes, they don't say your heart fails.
Speaker B:They don't say your heart stops.
Speaker B:They say it explodes.
Speaker B:Boats.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Blow the guy up.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:That would be so kung fu of them to actually do that.
Speaker C:I.
Speaker C:I went the ice because it was.
Speaker C:It's such a touching moment for me because they.
Speaker C:There's still love between them right after.
Speaker B:Sure.
Speaker C:It's like you just.
Speaker C:Five Finger Death punched me.
Speaker B:What the.
Speaker B:But he also broke.
Speaker B:But she also broke his heart.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And it.
Speaker B:I.
Speaker B:I think especially with how over the top every other death in this movie was.
Speaker B:Not only was this just underwhelming, it was disappointing.
Speaker B:And the fact that you built up that move to be such a big thing for both movies.
Speaker B:It was mentioned in both movies.
Speaker B:And for it to just.
Speaker A:In a movie where literally everything explodes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like swords.
Speaker A:Like even I Go back to the guy, the nurse that was letting men in to.
Speaker A:I hate even because that was so horrible.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:It was a great part of the movie, but it was.
Speaker A:It's hard to talk about.
Speaker B:It is.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But letting men do that, like she slams that door on that dude's head and I was like, that hurt.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker A:Did you guys flinch?
Speaker B:Hurt to listen to?
Speaker C:No, that, that hearkens back to that Pulp Fiction needle scene for me.
Speaker C:There's several of them in the series where it's like, it hits you on that visceral level.
Speaker C:But I don't know, man.
Speaker C:The, the anticlimactic way that a long relationship can come to an end too is heartbreaking.
Speaker C:So there's just something deeply human about it to me that I just.
Speaker B:Sure, it's deeply human.
Speaker B:But we're in a fantasy world.
Speaker B:They have created a non existent world.
Speaker B:And so I don't think it, it needed to follow a realistic situation if you're going to set up a realistic world with, with normal real world rules.
Speaker B:Cool.
Speaker B:But everything in this movie, in the, in both movies was so fantastical and so over the top that to suddenly cop out and be like, oh, this is a human moment.
Speaker B:It's a cop out.
Speaker B:To me, it's not.
Speaker B:The one time in this movie he didn't go far enough.
Speaker B:When every other moment in this movie, I think he went too far.
Speaker B:He didn't go far enough for this ending.
Speaker B:And that it even goes back to the subtle detail of.
Speaker B:I think there should have been scars all over her body while she's laying on the bathroom floor.
Speaker B:Because it, it just, it's another thing that would have visually shown us the entire story in one shot and, and I think, I don't know, I think overall it, it, it just, it failed to deliver on, as you said, what is such a wild ride.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah, man.
Speaker A:Four to three.
Speaker A:This one was like close.
Speaker A:Yeah, close.
Speaker A:Ultimately it's a Tarantino and.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:You can only compare it that way.
Speaker A:I love it.
Speaker A:But yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:We went 6 to 1, 4 to 3 and you pointed out some interesting things.
Speaker A:And it is the thing about Tarantino, I think that I.
Speaker A:It's not just you.
Speaker A:When you go out and read like comments and feedback from other people.
Speaker A:It is definitely interesting how his pace is viewed.
Speaker A:Like he is a very divisive director because.
Speaker A:And we earlier.
Speaker A:I don't even know if we were recording when we talked about this, but he straddles that line between, between, you know, glorification of his influences and paying respect to those in homage versus copying.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And if you tend to veer negative on Tarantino, I noticed that they will call him like, he's not original and only copies, but then others, and I think you and me are probably more in this vein.
Speaker A:It's paying great homage.
Speaker A:So it is really interesting when you, when you put a Tarantino film to the test because you get a lot of these.
Speaker A:And I think part of it too is because his Persona is so forward.
Speaker A:He definitely is just an in your face guy.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:His filmmaking is in your face.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And you kind of.
Speaker A:Even Scorsese has like a.
Speaker A:An accessibility that's really interesting.
Speaker C:He pulls his punches.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:But Tarantino does not pull any punches.
Speaker C:No.
Speaker B:Tarantino could not have made Hugo.
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, even Goodfellas, you know, and of course I read the book Wise Guys, but like, there was a weird accessibility to these mobsters.
Speaker A:You're just like, somehow I still, I know they're going to chop my balls off, but I kind of still want to have a drink with them.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like with Tarantino, it's just like fucking, here we go.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's like when you chop an arm off, like, blood's going to spray out for the full 20 minutes and she's still going to be alive.
Speaker A:And, and, and I do think it.
Speaker B:Is worth mentioning Tarantino has two movies that he likes to make and he's, he's been very vocal about this.
Speaker B:He has his real world movies, which are Reservoir Dogs, Pulp Fiction.
Speaker B:I think hateful8 might fall in there.
Speaker B:But then you also have Once Upon a Time in Hollywood where those are supposed to be real world and so things are a little less over the top.
Speaker B:Then you have your Django, then you have your Kill Bill, then you have these Inglourious Basterds, which are the movies that are made with.
Speaker B:In the universe of his other movies.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So those are the two types of movies he makes.
Speaker B:And that's why it's so weird for me that this one goes so over the top in some places and then pulls his punches in the worst places he could pull his punches in.
Speaker B:Like, it's just.
Speaker B:I don't know, it's all very weird for me.
Speaker A:Well, yeah, him, he's going to go down as maybe the most.
Speaker A:One of the most divisive directors ever.
Speaker A:I mean, definitely, if not the, at least in the top five of like, you, you're gonna have a binary opinion.
Speaker B:And he honestly, in my opinion, should end up in the top 25 directors.
Speaker B:Of all time.
Speaker A:Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:And we'll cover more Tarantino.
Speaker A:We have a lot of them on the list.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:But, dude, I was so glad to have your.
Speaker B:Yeah, man, absolutely.
Speaker A:I don't honestly know how this would have gone without your references to.
Speaker A:To the homage that I was playing.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:I'm happy to have that useless knowledge rolling around in my head.
Speaker C:My kids never want to hear about it, so I have to have someplace to let it out.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:You guys got any shows coming up you want the folks to see or.
Speaker B:Not by the time this one airs?
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker C:What am I doing?
Speaker C:What am I doing with my life?
Speaker A:You know what?
Speaker C:Look.
Speaker C:Look up my show dates on Blevo comedy on all social media platforms.
Speaker C:That'll be your best way to find me.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And you can follow me at Seth K's comedy on Instagram and Facebook.
Speaker A:Do it.
Speaker A:And I link you guys all the time, so just click on those links.
Speaker A:Follow these gentlemen.
Speaker A:Give them.
Speaker A:Give them some love, and not just for testosterone comments.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:About Henry.
Speaker A:But thank you so much for joining us, and I hope you enjoyed this.
Speaker A:Love, y'all.
Speaker A:I'm Kyle.
Speaker B:I'm Seth.
Speaker A:I'm Matthew.
Speaker B:Peace.
Speaker A:I'm getting worse and worse by the day of this love, y'all.
